Thanks to the efforts of the great DeConf Video Team, all the talks recorded at the Winterthur MiniDebConf are now available at https://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2026/MiniDebConf-Winterthur/ #debian #MiniDebConf #MiniDebConfWinterthur2026

Warning: Debian 11 Long Term Support reaches end-of-life https://www.debian.org/News/2026/20260831 #debian #bullseye #debianLTS

#Debian was structured as a democracy of developers (maybe technically a platonic aristocracy, but it does not matter here).

Thanks to this, it got trust that turned it into a fundamental building block for #Linux users (most used distro are Debian derivatives).

Unfortunately, such trust also attracted commercial interest.

Now most of Debian Developers (just like most of #Linux kernel's devs) are corporate employees that would not be assigned to Debian development if they would oppose corporare interests.

So ultimately Debian cannot be trusted anymore: the vote on #LLM is just an evidence of this fact.

To people who use it since decades (I started with Potato because of its focus on #freedom), it's a pain.

Right now I'm slowly moving to #NetBSD.

@skjeggtroll@mastodon.online @freshstart@hachyderm.io @neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk

@giacomo @tiotasram @skjeggtroll @freshstart @neil

"Now most of Debian Developers … are corporate employees that would not be assigned to Debian development if they would oppose corporare interests."

Have you any numbers about how many #Debian Developers are assigned by their employers? I don't, but would guess, that it is a small minority. I'm a DD myself and I'm not aware of many DDs working that way, but I don't have numbers.

Do you work as a professional developer/sysadmin/devop etc?

Does your employer knows you work on Debian, even if in your out-of-office hours?

If so, if your employer let you work on Debian, it's just because you are aligned with the company interests enough to bring such interests in the context of #Debian.

I don't have numbers either, but my bet (based on what I observed in other projects) is that most independent #Debian Developers were in the #NoAI camp.

Note that the corporate capture of Debian has been ongoing since years (recall #systemd?).

And each of these "divisive" vote makes some independent devs leave, increasing corporate influence.

The outcome is sad, but much expected.

@tiotasram@kolektiva.social @skjeggtroll@mastodon.online @freshstart@hachyderm.io @neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk

@giacomo @tiotasram @skjeggtroll @freshstart @neil

My employer lets me work on #Debian (99 % in my spare time), but I don't think they have the slighest idea, what I'm doing there 😉

I'm in Debian since 1998. I don't know all DDs, but some. Most of those I know are not working on Debian on behalf of their company. But that's just my anecdata.

Please, if you make such bold statements, please either back it up with numbers or clearly mark it as vague assumptions without any relation to facts.

@giacomo @tiotasram @skjeggtroll @freshstart @neil

Btw. if you believe, that everyone working on #Debian and has an employment, does align their Debian work with their employer, than only #freeSoftware made by #jobless people and #pensioneers is acceptable for you? Shall we all give ourselves to #breatharianism?

You are forgetting hobbists, academics and independent developers. 😉

Anyway, no: most of free software projects do not attract any commercial interest, and working on them does not necessarily imply lobbying for your employer.

Debian (or Linux) are too influential to be "left alone".

Also I'm not even arguing about the good faith of such developers: I'm totally sure that none of them betray their values to serve direct corporate orders, their beliefs are simply aligned with those the employer want to spread.

Don't take this as a personal criticism: it's not, really.

You are totally entitled to your opinion, and your valuable work for Debian (both the 1% in your office hours, and the 99% in your free time) weights your vote.

It's totally up to you (and other Debian Developer) to steer the project as you like.

For security reasons, I'd prefer a #Debian that ban #BigTech contributions through #LLM (or not, frankly).

And just like I adopted Debian for ethical and political reasons back in 2000, I will move on to something else for the same kind of reasons.

Debian changed over these 26 years: the focus on freedom and stability is gone.

But I changed too.
I've much less free time I used to have back then and replacing Debian will be painful.

Yet, the sooner the better.

@tiotasram@kolektiva.social @skjeggtroll@mastodon.online @freshstart@hachyderm.io @neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk

@giacomo @tiotasram @skjeggtroll @freshstart @neil

"You are forgetting hobbists, academics and independent developers."

But only unemployed or retired hobbyists.

I wouldn't trust academics, as they might — intentionally or unconsciously — subordinate #Debian goals under their #university or more often than not externally (think #bigTech) funded #research.

Forget "independent developers" entirely. They are #freelancers, i.e. slaves to their customers.

@giacomo @tiotasram @skjeggtroll @freshstart @neil

I wonder, why you say, that #Debian does not focus on #freedom and #stability anymore.

The only decision, that admittedly went away from #freeSoftware principles was the inclusion of #nonfree #firmware in the default installer. I'm OK with that.

The only thing not as #stable as it used to be, are the exemptions for Chromium, Firefox, and Thunderbird, i.e. allow new versions during stable. I don't like that, but can't change it.

Debian hat den Einsatz von "KI" im Quellcode seines Projekts gestattet.

Das Projekt erlaubt damit Quellcode-Beiträge, von denen sie weder ausgehen können noch sicher sind, dass sie tatsächlich unter eine freie Lizenz gestellt werden dürfen.

In den USA kann das zu einem schwerwiegenden rechtlichen Problem für Debian werden.

AI - Asbest der Informatik

#AI #KI #LLM #Debian #FLOSS #opensource

@herzmut

Bisher gehe ich als DD (Mitpaketierer von 149 packages) davon aus, daß die #Copyright-Angaben von upstream stimmen. Ich kann es selbst weder wissen noch realistisch prüfen. Daran ändert sich nichts, da das #GR nur die Verwendung von #AI im Projekt selbst (nicht upstream code) betraf. Rechtliche Risiken sehe ich zu 99.9 % beim Paketieren von upstream code. Die 0.1 % (vielleicht mehr?) von Projektcode sind dann auch egal. So oder so stehe ich mit einem Bein im #Knast.

#Debian #IANAL

What are the remaining maximally useful #Linux / #Debian alternatives with a strict #noAI policy?

What are the most important selection criteria for you and how do they do against those?

No #LLM #FOSS

And now, about #Debian #DebIAn; where to go ? #Arch I like it; Nixos too but fucking tree. What else with no AI / IA ?

I haven't read the resolutions for the recent #Debian vote about AI, so I don't know which I most agree with, or how I feel about the one that won.

It is however strange to me to see attacks on the voting system that Debian uses. It's excessively complicated for a political election, but it does indicate which choice the voters prefer.

#AI #LLMs #Voting #ElectoralReform

@itsfoss Is a good thing I don't use #debian then. All these new wet vibe coders scream that coding with #AIhype is the only way, while completely disregarding the dangers of feeding data into a commercial LLM.

If you use #localAI, all respect for you. But if you use #bigTech LLM, I have no use for your product.

I wonder if there stands a chance of a hard fork of the whole of #Debian with the explicit inclusion of “NO LLM / GenAI contributions of this fork”, given the vote result.? Pro-LLM devs would stay with Debian; anti-LLM devs would shift to NoAIDebian.. there would need to be a significant number moving there for it to be effective, could it continue to be sustainable? The AI-allowed Debian would become significantly more ensloppified. Would it wither due to slop?

https://vote.debian.org/~secretary/gr_llm/results.txt

@M0CUV

#systemd GR vibes 🙂

Remember, when #Debian has been forked to Devuan back then?

The most significant use of LLM will not be in the minimal, distribution specific parts anyway, but in the Linux kernel and other relevant packages. Whatever Debian does itself, is small by proportion.

@debacle

I also hope the DDs all realize that AI may not be with us forever. The extreme amount of energy and money needed to make and use it certainly doesn't seem sustainable other than for big corporate clients with deep pockets, and I'm not under the impression that #Debian has deep pockets.

Is everyone currently using AI in Debian prepared to go back to hand-writing everything, if and when that becomes necessary?

@joeyh

I have been using #Debian since around 2004.

That is 22 years, for those keeping count.

I cannot express how disappointed I am that Debian is going to allow for #AISlop to be used in commits. For 22 years I have been a fairly vocal advocate for people to use Debian.

Over the next couple of months I will be transitioning all of my Debian systems to #Gentoo or other Non-Slopified distros.

#NoAI #AntiAi

@agx will soon (10:30 CEST) give a talk about #Phosh and #BengalOS at MiniDebConf Winterthur!

https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/talks/18-the-phosh-bengalos-roadshow/

https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/schedule/venue/3/

#LinuxMobile #debian #mobian #DebConf #MiniDebConfCH

To all those users now "desperately" looking for a new home, due to the recent Debian GR outcome: As long as you stay with Linux ... you continue with AI....

So, how do you rage quit the kernel? (Possible, but way harder).

#debian #llmgr #llm #ai

(No, I'm not happy with the result. But switching away, as a user, seems rather useless, if not entirely silly.)

Huh. So #Debian voted for Proposal E regarding the use of LLM generated code, which people seem to like to describe as a "middle ground" but which, in fact, places absolutely no limitations on the use of AI in any way, not even merely requiring disclosure. That sounds more like complete acceptance of LLM. You can read the proposal that won here:

https://www.debian.org/vote/2026/vote_002#texte

So now I guess I have a ticking time bomb of an OS and get to wait and see if the software in it become unusuable, or uncopywritable, or both. I do not like this brave new world I am being dragged into against my will where my only option seems to be to eventually give up the use of all computers if I want to maintain my ethics.

MiniDebConf Winterthur 2026: live talks can be watched starting at 9:00 A.M. DebConf time (7:00 A.M. UTC) by clicking on the link on the homepage https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/ #debian #MiniDebConf #MiniDebConfWinterthur2026

Today, following a final presentation dedicated to education, the majority of the Winterthur MiniDebConf sessions will focus on the use of Debian on embedded systems. Find the day's program on the page https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/schedule/?block=2 #debian #MiniDebConf #MiniDebConfWinterthur2026

@debacle
that wasn't the point joyeh made, as i understood it. (my) main point is that #debian should be putting up fierce collective defense against the dismantling of the relationships between the people that make and use debian. defending and upholding the social contract and its raison d'etre.

some very good, and recent and timely, reflections on what using some tools does to us:
https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/no-such-thing-as-just-a-tool
@jbz @joeyh

｢ What LLMs in Debian development will do, I fear, is eliminate any incentive to scrap boilerplate or reform policies that require a lot of other senseless human effort. If I had had access to LLMs 30 years ago, I might have just had them generate the rules files, replate with complexity. So they will make Debian even more firmly what it is, and ever less likely to explore what it could become ｣

https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/Debian_and_the_sirens/

#debian #llm #aislop #vibecoding #opensource

@jbz

I assume (= hope), that @joeyh is wrong here. Just because LLM AI contributions are allowed in #Debian now, it does not mean, that all or most DDs will use AI. I.e. the incentive to streamline tools and workflows will remain for unaltered to most of us.

@blogdiva

1. Members of the #Debian project are called "Debian Developers" for historical reasons. Not all DDs are uploading, i.e. they might participate in other ways.

2. The #GR was *NOT* for/against LLM or #AI in general, but only about its use for project specific tasks. Which is a very, very small part of what we distribute.

If you want to avoid LLM/AI (and you have my sympathy for that), you need to avoid e.g. the #Linux kernel.

Maybe take a look at one of the #BSDs.

I'm deeply disappointed by the result of the #Debian #AI vote. I seems to me that the project is pretty much split down the middle on the issue, and I'm very unhappy that my ethical opposition puts me in the minority.

I'm not sure where we go from here, but I don't think I want to abandon ship after so many years in the project.

I've loved #Debian for years. Decades, really. The main reason for that is it's always seemed, to me, to be the best place to actually control and own your own computer.

That trust is gone for me. We can talk responsible, not responsible, whatever. The fact is, LLMs are trained on the hard work of billions of people, and put into a blender and sold back to us. It's more separation of workers from the fruit of their labors, to the profit of capitalists.

That's not even getting into the environmental impacts, the bias in it, etc. And especially not getting into the horrible, HORRIBLE people in charge of it all.

I do not want that on my laptop, folks. I just don't.

so i have questions about #Debian:

1. are members ONLY developers?

2. only developers argued for/against #LLM #AI?

devs are the last people who should be involved in discussions about the ethics and legality of software. ie:

just reckoned, when a court recently decided you can't claim #copyright on #aislop, it didn't occur to me it means both closed and open copyright.

so, if using LLMs trained on works stolen or added without consent removes any claims of #FLOSS: what is Debian now? …🧵

@kbm0 @blogdiva One final thought about this..

The Debian Social Contract (https://www.debian.org/social_contract) states, "4. Our priorities are our users and free software." That's generally used as a guide for fixing bugs (eg, "this issue breaks upgrades for a good portion of users, that's a high priority to fix!"). However, without having a mechanism for *users* to be polled or to vote, how can #Debian really claim to prioritize its users when it doesn't know how its user base as a whole feels?

As a #Debian developer I feel compelled to react : either pro- or anti-LLMs, the important part is that the project members agreed to disagree and not take any significant measure.

It is an acknowledgement of the times we live through as much as the recognition that we have no actual power over it.

In a polarized world, I welcome the fact that we didn't go to one extreme or the other, while regretting that the world is f**ked to the point that we had to take that (meaningless) vote.

@neil Damn, I will have to find a new favourite distro.

#GnuLinux #Linux #Debian #aislop

After four days of DebCamp, the Winterthur MiniDebConf itself begins this Saturday with around ten presentations, including a track on school and education. Streaming of talks begin at 9:00 AM DebConf time (7:00 AM UTC). See the schedule https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/schedule/?block=6 #debian #MiniDebConf #MiniDebConfWinterthur2026

@sven222 @toesstaler @digitalcourage

Als #Debian-User und -Entwickler ärgert mich, daß es derzeit extrem schwierig zu paketieren ist. Ich habe Zweifel, ob es jemals paketiert werden kann.

https://bugs.debian.org/1073037

Und solange es nicht paketiert ist, nutze ich es nicht. #Jabber/#XMPP und Matrix haben diverse Clients und Servers in Debian und anderen Distributionen. Die machen es in dieser Hinsicht besser.

(2/3)

MiniDebCamp Winterthur 2026 has just started and we already had a packaging workshop today! Tomorrow is daytrip day so debianites can chill and bond before a lot of more work and talks in the weekend. Check the schedule at https://ch2026.mini.debconf.org/schedule/ #debian #MiniDebConf #MiniDebConfWinterthur2026

The Debian project started in 1993 and celebrates its birthday on August 16th of each year: Debian Day. This year we'll have at least 19 gatherings in 3 continents; c u there! #Debian #Debian33years #DebianDay #DebianDay2026

Over next 1-2 weeks,I'd appreciate an extended thread re: #FrameworkLaptop, #mntreform, & #FOSS.

TL;DR on my idiosyncratic needs:
* minimize binary firmware blobs¹
* Having 2 disks in RAID-1²
* Runs stock Official #Debian stable³
* Understanding best current replacement keyboard options⁴
* Form factor that works for my travel needs.

Is @frameworkcomputer or @mntmn better for me?

I'd be glad if ∃ active engagement on this!

#AskFedi #AskFediverse #Framework #OpenSource

New #Firefox ESR just hit #Debian so it seems to be time to about:config and `browser.ml.chat.enabled=false`

I can't believe I didn't know about it already! I frequently have to rename many files, and vidir lets me apply my keybinding and hacky macro knowledge to yet another task :D